Knowledge...A community discussion....***Needs indexing


CinnamonMoon
Spirit Keeper
Joined: 13 Mar 2002, 04:15

11 Jun 2011, 17:23 #1

You know I was sitting here thinking about how some people get really upset when someone shares something they've learned from them or overheard them saying or even written somewhere. Now I am not talking about plagerism, just knowledge we pick up along the way from a source we may or may not note in our minds. I know that I don't own the knowledge I hold, it's mine in the sense that I hold it, yes, but it's also meant to be passed on to others when and where it's helpful. IMHO
I thought I'd start a thread and see what others think or feel about that. So many who hold the knowledge of the sacred mysteries (though it could be any body of knowledge) feel it's to be jealously guarded, perhaps protected from falling into the 'wrong' hands, or whathaveyou.  Personally, I think the sharing is awesome. How do you feel about the subject? Image
Last edited by CinnamonMoon on 15 Jun 2011, 20:40, edited 1 time in total.
~Wan-Tanna-Hey: "Walk In Peace With Spirit"~

Image


~To Be A Feather In Spirit's Wing~


~Experience Is A Master Teacher~
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Paah Wenchokws
Honored Member
Joined: 04 Jun 2008, 17:23

11 Jun 2011, 18:37 #2

There is a saying, "All knowledge is borrowed"........



A personal thought....... When I am relaxed and just aware, then knowledge is attracted to me. I have found through experience that when I am not anticipating, knowledge comes freely and is not forced.



KNOWLEDGE COMES FROM OUTSIDE

WISDOM COMES FROM WITHIN AND

ARISE OUTWARDLY



KNOWLEDGE IS OF THE PAST

AND OF THE FUTURE



WISDOM IS OF THE NOW

OF THE PRESENT



KNOWLEDGE CONSISTS OF TIME

WISDOM KNOWS NO TIME



KNOWLEDGE CAN BRING SORROW

WISDOM BRINGS PEACE



KNOWLEDGE IS EGO

WISDOM IS NOT



KNOWLEDGE DIVIDES REALITY

WISDOM BRINGS SOLIDARITY



KNOWLEDGE IS ACCUMULATION

WISDOM IS NOT



~Paah



I pass the talking stick......
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wynsong7
Honored Member
Joined: 08 Nov 2005, 23:35

11 Jun 2011, 19:18 #3

I've read this Cinnamon, and I'm sitting with it, because in your asking, I have discovered that my feelings around the topic are not as clear as I might have thought.



I'll be back.



Munay
ImageMunay
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MonSnoLeeDra2
Honored New Member
Joined: 04 Feb 2004, 00:52

11 Jun 2011, 20:52 #4

I think one of the critical facets for me is the question of "Is it mine to share?"  I suppose it would seem an easy question to answer but many times its not or it is very subjective in who really owns it.

For instance, I was given a couple of Cherokee chants that are used to protect from Dream Walkers.  One of the conditions was that I not pass it on to anyone else on that particular site.  The person told me he spoke to the elders and they gave permission to share it with me.  So by my own ethics it is knowledge I now possess but it is not mine to make the determination of whether it should be shared with another.  In my acceptance of that knowledge I agreed to that condition, to reveal it shows my own ethics and morals have no value.  Yet one might say I may never meet that person again or cross paths in another way so I am not bound by that oath.  Yet then it to me is still an issue of personal ethics and the value of ones word and oath.
Spirit has granted me visions or dreams that again I own in the sense they were given to me and pertain to me but once again is it correct to reveal them to another?  Some Spirit has told me to speak upon, others I am to keep to my self and never share or reveal to another.  Yet I am tested at times for I clearly see things in others request that might be answered by what was revealed to me yet I must trust in that Spirit has a different plan for them else I would not have been told to keep it hidden.  Though I must also realize that what lies hidden within me may in fact be the Hollow Bone material to be revealed by another as Spirit dictates.

I do admit I have difficulty at times when I see something and have to ask why it bothers me to such an extent.  Sometimes it is clearly that I do not think the person worthy of it, an example is the sweat lodge that was done in Arizona where some died.  I still find that it would have been better had the person never heard of it and caused the pain and suffering he inflicted.  Other things I truly wonder about for I think I know enough of or about a thing that it causes me to ask.  It's like the story of White Buffalo Calf Woman Comes Dancing, her teachings were for the Lakota and compromise part of the core structure of that people.  I can speak upon it but can never convey the true depths and undercurrents her story conveys to the Lakota so I question is it mine to speak on even though I have knowledge of it?  Of course it also inversely asks do I have a right or charge to try and protect it from abuse and misuse?
I sometimes think we as humans forget their is a difference between spiritual truth and knowledge, physical truth and knowledge and cultural or religious truth and knowledge.  I can speak on physical truths and knowledge for it can be verified and many times validated through others and is viewable in many ways with the naked eye.  Cultural and religious truths and knowledge are a bit more difficult to speak on, especially when one is not born of or into the given culture or religion.  Unless one is totally immersed into the culture one can not truly become one with it, at best they simply skim the surface and have but the shallowest of experience with it.  Spiritual truth and knowledge is even harder to speak upon and covey.  We as a species I believe would like to think spiritual truth and knowledge is universal but it is so often hidden beneath layers of cultural and religious perceived truths and knowledge that it becomes lost or conveyable to one outside of the cultural / religious influences. 
Like the notion of killing is wrong but the justification or reasoning as to why differs in so many ways in so many places.  Yet how can I hope to convey the sense of "Manitou" for instance when the very concept and notion is foreign to so many who are not of the Algonquian group of Native American peoples.  Yet it is similar in concept to the notion of Qi, Kami or even Spirit but differs as well.  So I become not only responsible for passing it along but ensuring that it is understood in the manner I am trying to convey it or the way it is to be conceived or perceived by the one I am speaking to.
As I stated earlier I tend to think many hold the belief it is their duty to speak upon a thing yet the utterance by them does more damage than good for they were not the hollow bone intended to speak it.  Yet through a sense of self importance or perhaps a belief of their own self importance they spoke out of turn, changing the course that Spirit laid out and the lessons that one was supposed to have experienced prior to their interaction with the knowledge.  But of course that in itself becomes a lesson but the question then remains as to who it is being directed against, the one who seeks or the one who has elevated themselves above others in the sense they are the repositories of Spirit knowledge?
Hopefully this long read has been helpful though I am not sure it is answered the question.



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michelangelo2
Honored Member
Joined: 20 Apr 2007, 14:13

12 Jun 2011, 03:10 #5

You know, Cinn, I'm not sure I understand you...
This...'You know I was sitting here thinking about how some people get really upset when someone shares something they've learned from them or overheard them saying or even written somewhere.'....I thought I got it...but then you said you weren't referring plagiarism so I'm not sure I get the question or maybe I just haven't experienced this.
I can relate to what you've said in the science field......which is one way in which I perceive the Great Mysteries.
And when I was writing my thesis I did both the formal crediting other sources for ideas, and I did the unformal 'acknowledgement' section where I acknowledged people who inspired me.  And I also wrote an unpublised version of my thesis where I realized that if I ACTUALLY didn't want to commit plagiarism I would have to acknowledge EVERYBODY and EVERYTHING I have ever known and come in contact with....as all my previous experiences have contributed to that culminating moment where I was writing. 
Of course, there aren't enough trees to write that, so I just did my best accrediting where credit is due.

You might find it interesting to know that there is a PhD researcher who is doing their thesis on exactly this topic....Knowledge, how to properly share, how to properly cite, what is considered 'common knowledge', how is knowledge all essentially communal, and do we actually have intellectual property rights, and what are they.
So!! it's not a simple matter, and I haven't got a simple answer.  Image 
For me ~personally~, I trust others' to use their own conscience and guidance when sharing things I've told/written with them.  I find it remarkable actually, but most really do honour the trust I have placed in them, unwaveringly so. 
And my learnings are not meant to be hidden, hoarded JUST for me.
I like sharing.
But I do not like being stolen from.
And I really couldn't agree more with MonSnoLeeDra's simple reflection of 'Is it mine to share?'
(and also...is it mine NOT to share?)
Generally I figure
If it's not my story to tell..........................
If it's not my journey...............................
If it's not my own learning.......................
If it lives more fully in the heart of another..........................  then I leave them their choice to share or not share.~ 
Or if I must share it for some aching reason that won't go away.............Ask first.
Much easier to ask permission than ask forgiveness, IMO.
Olay~
< img src="http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s317 ... /Swans.gif" alt="image">




I am full, and I am well-pleased. This creates freedom to love well and take up my dreams.
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Mitchy
Honored Member
Joined: 15 Feb 2011, 20:14

12 Jun 2011, 10:59 #6

In my country no one wanna
share their knowledge of shamanism for free. Oh yes, you can become a shaman in
my country as well IF you’re ready to pay several thousand dollars. I think it
is wrong.


Shamanism
has existed in Scandinavia for thousands of years and I think it is my
birthright to learn these old methods. We all have the birthright to learn
about spiritualism in one form or another and I think it should be a natural
thing to share with those who want to know.


We cannot
be teachers if we cannot share our knowledge with others. So yes, I think we all
should share our knowledge. Perhaps for a small fee or just for free. There´s
nothing wrong with guiding others
~ Mitchy
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wachituga
Honored Member
Joined: 05 Aug 2009, 21:03

12 Jun 2011, 11:59 #7

Cinnamon, what occurs to me:
When I was young, I asked my father a lot of questions. They were quite unusual questions by common standards I would say. They would be about all kinds of things. But he would always know the answers. And I would ask how he knew that. And he would say "I don't know. I must have picked it up somewhere."
But people sometimes the knowledge is that  knowledge is about power and status and control and hierarchy and competition. That was the knowledge that was conveyed most at school. In particular the knowledge was that we had to focus on knowledge that would bring that into being and result in us having a good life with all kinds of nice things as a result. So we were supposed to sit up and pay attention and learn exactly how things had to be done and do lots of homework and concentrate on our own work.
I adopted different knowledge instead.
After school and university, I used my kind of knowledge at work and freelance, and got a car and big house anyway. 
But later the goverment had knowledge, that freelance didn't fit into the scheme. So rather than taking up job offers that came my way from global IT service companies, I did some other things instead. 
The psychiatrists have knowledge that it is all wrong. But I have different knowledge. While they play limited frame of reference, close in, invalidate, put down divide and conquer, I play lift up and integrate and open out , unlimited frame of reference.

I have strange ways of thinking. It seems like some people like half a circle and to keep it down to just that and push the other half down and to try to keep the first half seming relatively up. There seems to be some fear of losing it if this isn't done. But I like the whole circle and to cross any perceived boundary and for the whole circle to be lifted up.
There's story about Solomon, that I've known for a long time. It's about splitting the baby in half. But it's not really a story about knowledge. It's a story about wisdom instead. 
My mother was told when she was young by an aunt that she had a gift, but she was not to use it and clairvoyants have repeated the same message many times. In the meantime psychiatry has grown and my mother doesn't know why the message was given. So far there have been 3 in the family diagnosed as "paranoid schiszophrenic", one killed by psychiatric drugs, another suffering damage, but the third one has backing from his immediate family and is not subjected to psychiatric drugs. He's the youngest one of the three.
So yes there are people that we don't pass much knowledge to, the ones that would use it to split the baby in half. It depends on the nature of the knowledge, because the best kinds of knowledge can be given to anyone at all. It is the kind of knowledge that nearly everyone likes if they try it, but there are a few who don't like any useful knowledge at all and believe that it has to be extinguished and destroyed. And some people will know history relating to that kind of effect, and take a course of protecting but also holding back positive change, and others who will break out which brings risks but also brings positive change. 
So aside from respecting agreed confidences, we just have to decide what's appropriate for us. 
I "daydreamed" for 44 years, no matter what else I was doing at the same time, and noone who knew me really noticed anything unusual at all, they would mostly just think I was a little naive or on the quiet side, or very calm, or (at school with a number of teachers) disobedient or lazy or intransigent or enigmatic or subversive or unobservant and unaware of the real world, or strong willed or assertive (in business terminology) or helpful or productive and other positive stuff, but one little tiny piece of knowledge conveyed at the age of 44, and at age 45 all forces conspired to attempt to destroy it all. Even later, after a near 6 year gap, the same  thing happened again.
I can see something in all the perspectives on this issue, but progress is unstoppable and we can go with the flow. So I'm sure that you would know the answer for yourself. We can do what we want, because what we really want is consistent with the best that we could possibly want. It's unconstrained free will, it's absolutely positively disposed and naturally motivating because it comes from the same positively disposed source. It is only other negative influences that constrain it and represent a barrier to get beyond within, to release it and allow it to flow.
People can perceive walls, or unkowingly maintain them, and consequently knowledge can be just relative, but nothing is really separate at all. 
Mistakes are inevitable from time to time, and they are not always really mistakes. All experience is valid and has it's place in evolution. Whatever happens, it's just a timing difference, things come back round and realign. Whatever has been held back breaks back through again one way or another. There is no reason why should hold any negative reaction to a person or behaviour, because it can either be set aside if not significant or be just a trigger for self-transformation and discovering more that can start the participation in turning things back the right way. 
Other people are not in charge of us. If they were, in one way or another we would have all of their problems combined. That's how mental health services work in the UK, the staff collect all of their individual limitations, problems and misperceptions and put them all together and attempt to load all of them on the patients at once and then try to treat their own problems via the patients by enforcing drugs. Whatever feedback they get reinforces it, because if the patients cave in or deceive and agree to get out of it they perceive that as proof that it works, and if the patients do anything else they perceive that as proof that it's necessary. Generally this how logic around limited frames of reference work. Everything tends to get interpretted to shore up the frame of reference whether there is anything positive or not.
But this is all play. We are diverse and self-empowered, and if we respect that that is universally applicable, then it's just no putting down individuals, just all lifting up and/or drawing boundaries if necessary on the extremes of opposite effect.  Another way to say it would be that the power is within to change life and lives for the better and when needs are met and as resources are obtained to support and grow the effect, can be given away without being lost.
Sometimes I'm reminded of the story of King Canute. He tried to hold back the tide. The sea came in anyway. I figure that if there is positive intention we can flow with the tide. If we misjudge the tide once in a while, we can just step back and learn more about the tide. The sea will keep going anyway at the end of our physical life. It's all one sea really. It's just that the waves go up and down a bit to varying degrees as the sea rises to where it is to be.
There's a song about jealousy, lyrics here http://www.lyricsmania.com/jealousy_lyr ... laine.html. It starts, "Jealousy, night and day you tortured me."   Themes can get a bit stretched sometimes, but there's always a place of calm in a whirlwind and a light touch of sense of humour.
We could probably go on for a long time about it. But in silence and calm, we would just get that whoosh of certainty and calm positivity and a creative solution in any given circumstances that fits in every way and cuts through it. Inner peace and strength. It's a natural thing and not really easy for it to be broken or interfered with or constrained. 
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DragonHawk
Honored Member
Joined: 11 Nov 2008, 17:37

12 Jun 2011, 13:05 #8

Cinn



In my experience Knowledge only becomes Wisdom when we are at a point in our lives when we are ready to acccept the Knowledge: when we have reached a level of Wisdom almost equal to the Knowledge being imparted. I feel that the Wisdom we bring to the table is won from experience and was at one time Knowledge we sought which was tested by experience.



To me Knoweldge and the Wisdom it imparts are not the property of one person, culture or nation, but rather a pool that all can tap into. My own Journey has taught me that, for instance, there is very little difference between Native American and Celtic Shamanism. There are basic principles, commmon to many spiritual knowledge systems, that can be shared.



Where I do feel that we can start to experience problems is when we fail to recognise the impact of the Land on a particular system of Knowledge. To me there is little point in practicing certain particularities of Native American Shamanism if you live in the Middle East, Africa or Europe for instance: the creature teachers, seasons and weather aspects, terrain etc will be different etc etc. The basic principles will be the same throughout the world, but the practice will be different: you wouldn't need to physically build a Sweat-Lodge in the Middle East for instance - you would just need to go sit outside! I'm not fully au-fait with the ritual actually building the Sweat Lodge and the meanings of the construction (if there are such meanings), but I am sure that he Intent of the Sweat Lodge imbued in its building etc could be achieved by other means.



The prohibitions regarding Halal foods in the Middle East were orginally Wisdoms gained by experience of eating those foods in that area and how to prepare them safely for consumption from more ancient local customs and cultures although some Wisdoms contained in the Sacred Texts and practices of Middle Eastern and European communities are based on prohibition of practises of a previous culture in order to eradicate that culture or on a negative opinion of a neighbouring or antangonistic culture when there was a need to create a strength in the community perhaps in times of conflict and are not always sound from an Earth perspective, so there is also a need to understand the history of a culture.



I learnt basic principles of the Native American culture and spirituality from you and others here, and from writers like Jamie Sams but then used that basic learning to ecplore the sacred teachings of my own culture = the Celtic. I've travelled to the United States and Canada on numerous occassions and visited various sacred sites and sacred cultural spaces in both countries and whilst I can gain a flavour of the culture - perhaps the Inspiration or Intent of the culture - and I can understand why that culture exists in those places and what teh Land and the history itself imparts to the culture, I cannot fully comprehend the rituals associated with that culture.



Its the same when I visit internet sites of the many Americans who's ancestry is Celtic who try to live a Celtic culture in the United States: their learning seems hollow to me. I could say the same of the Muslims who live in Britain and seek to build a Muslim culture in Britain - it all seems very contrived and egotistical. But when I went to the UAE it seemed natural. The insecurities of the culture here were not present and it just flowed in a relaxed, unforced way that seemed natural. Even though I was only there a few months I could feel some of the underlying Intent the land inspired (especially out in the desert), free of what man had imposed upon it: almost as if the land was showing me the "why" of that culture, free of the impositions, but which had inspired the impositions. I understood that Islam as it is practiced in Britain is not true Islam, but rather a pastiche based on cultural prejudice.



From that I can also see the viewpoint of Native Americans (First Nations? I'm not entirely sure how they define themselves today) who see their culture being contrived by those who live in the largely European-inspired America city cultures (and beyond) by American's who have had no personal contact with their culture and who have never spent time in that culture. The imprint of the Roman culture on Britain has had very much the same impact. Its only when I go to the Sacred Spaces or out into the barren wildernesses here that I feel truly connected to the Celtic and can understand what the Land imparts that brought forward the culture: both its good points and its bad. The general viewpoint for instance is that the Druids were the Celtic priests. I am not so sure that was the case. The general viewpoint is that the Druids lived a life of Magikly-inspired, Nature-loving harmony for the good of the Whole, when on delving deeper the evidence might equally suggest that they were the forerunners of the slight of hand top-down, tyranical governement that has come to fruition in many parts of our world today: inspired by the principles they held. Again, that could be a later contrived imposition on the values they held, but certainly the principles they held and the practices they used have been used in a manner that is not been for the good of the Whole today.



I've also seen problems arise when people start to find their spiritual path (indeed experienced it myself) and dont realise that many of their early experiences are Shadow Lessons and they delve deeper and deeper, believing the guides and helpers they come across, whether of this World or others, are helping them and refuse to accept or cannot see that they are falling deeper and deeper into areas they have no ability to understand: partly because they have not understood that what they experience in the Outer World is the learning ground of the Inner World. There is a tendency to believe that all their experiences are positive and that they must simply try harder, and gain more Knowledge, to bring about the circumstances they desire, when in actual fact they are falling further and further away from the Truth. You and I both know people like this.



So to me the answer is that there is no problem with sharing but that those who seek should be mindful that such sharing is not a one-stop-shop and that they must look out into their own World and question their experiences. I think the problem is blind-following either of a human teacher, a guide, or written material without reference to experiences and without questioning why we expereince what we experience in the Outer World. A good physical teacher can never be substituted and the oral transmission of teachings is, as i see it now, a far better method as the teacher can guide the seeker: so in that respect I understand why many in the Celtic, Druidic, Chassidic and Native American communities do not want their teachings transmitted in written form. But at the same time, when I was first starting out, it was those very transmitions that created the spark in me to seek.



I think that it is our natural way to seek those of like mind and those who can aid us, and so the written material plays a part, but experience has taught me that we need to balance that with soulful Intent which shows us how our experiences are teachings us and seeking teachers who can guide us when we cannot understand what our spirit is trying to tell us and that can only really be done one on one. I think also that sometimes we need to be aware that a teacher is not infallible either and that if something we are taught "feels" wrong then it probably is. We may need to work with quite a few teachers before we find one that we can trust, and we always need to remain mindful that at the end of the day WE are responsible for everything that occurs in our lives, not a teacher, not a guide, not a written text.
Image
If the Doors of Perception are Cleansed, Everything
Appears as  It Truly Is - Infinite     ......William Blake 

  
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SE Dream Dancer
Honored Member
Joined: 08 Jan 2005, 00:43

12 Jun 2011, 14:36 #9

I'm all for sharing whatever.... so long as you do it with discretion ie, you don't give a baby a handgun. The only trouble I've found with sharing knowledge is giving too much too soon and it can burden someone. Sometimes, knowledge can be a burden because the a form of responsibility for that is assumed - either passively or actively and if someone isn't ready for that, knowledge can be more harm than good. I'm not into 'secret societies' etc... just in giving people freely what they need when they need it and if you don't know, check. And if you still don't know - remain silent.
<br>
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CinnamonMoon
Spirit Keeper
Joined: 13 Mar 2002, 04:15

15 Jun 2011, 20:38 #10

First let me thank everyone who participated in this thread, you've all raised good points and I'll address each of you separately in a moment. I wanted to give this thread time before sharing more in-depth myself. There are layers to the sharing and it is clear many of them were expressed here. Again, thank you all for expressing your thoughts and feelings.
For myself, I believe that sharing is essential if we are to evolve as a spiritually attuned family, and so I do not believe in keeping things hidden from those who are seeking truths. I believe it imperative that those truths (as we know them) are shared so that individual can continue on their journey a little better informed. Of course there is discernment in how or how much we do share based on the relationship with have with the person and how well we know their character. That said I'll now comment on the issues raised.
Paah~ I would agree with your adage that all knowledge is borrowed. And also with the fact that if we open ourselves the insights we seek will generally be brought forth. But some people are unaware of how to go about that opening up or are in the midst of accomplishing something and need some assistance in the physical sense. I believe, within the bounds of integrity and discernment, that sharing is appropriate. I'm not here to argue points with anyone, just share my views along with the others. I would certainly agree that wisdom is internal. I feel it is gained through exploring the knowledge or seeking it in the first place, and through understanding that knowledge we learn to wisely employ it.
 
MSLD~ You said that one of the critical facets is whether or not it is yours to share. I agree, in some instances we are not to share knowledge we hold when instructed to keep it to ourselves. But as a rule of thumb that's a limited body of knowledge that we're not prepared to pass on yet. I was addressing the question on more general terms. So you've brought in another layer.
In light of the issues you raised, I am of the opinion that there was a time when cultural knowledge along spiritual lines was placed in the hands of Keepers and it was kept safe, therefore hidden from those outside that culture. But I believe, and guidance has had a big part in showing me this, that those days have passed behind us and it is now time to bring it out into the world, to share it and combine the keys that were distributed so that all doors may open to all of us. Now the rituals and ceremonies need to be passed into capable hands, of course. But we can share enough to prepare those hands to receive them if they honor the teachings they are receiving. IMHO. Where a promise of silence has been made I believe it needs to be honored. However I also believe that once knowledge is passed it is the individual receiving it that is responsible for whether or not it is passed along to another too.
I the case of the Elders requesting you not share the knowledge publicly on the website, they were protecting it from falling into the wrong hands, saw the need in you to have it, and so asked that you keep it to yourself. At least that's what I took from the way you expressed your example. I would ask if your ethics are restricting your sharing of it because you took it further than the Elders may have meant? Just a rhetorical pondering there, as I do respect that you gave word.
An issue I would raise for the opposite side of that matter is that as we grow and times change boundaries and the rules we are guided by change with them. What once applied may or may not hold true then. We are tested as to keeping our word, and in those instances where we're told by Spirit or guidance not to reveal something I believe we must adhere to that for the same reasons you stated, there are other issues at play we can't see for an individual that has to learn what we know by experience. I've been told to stand out of the way of others I so wanted to help too. But even when our heart is in the right place, they may need other lessons we can't help them with and those come by experience or the sharing of another.
Your examples of misused knowledge and the damage it causes are are valid points. Again, I am brought back to my belief that the individual holding the knowledge is responsible for the misuse of it, not the one that has shared it unless that was done carelessly...another layer of discernment popping up. Even the Elders (and I'm talking from various Nations and cultures) have been told that there would come a time to share and I believe with the profusion of that happening at this time, that the time has come. I grew up when it was kept hidden, only to be shared with the initiated, but I believe that times have changed now and that the initiated are being initiated more openly rather than behind the scenes. This is my opinion, I don't expect to change anyone's mind about anything here, just share a layer.
You stated: "I sometimes think we as humans forget their is a
difference between spiritual truth and knowledge, physical truth and
knowledge and cultural or religious truth and knowledge." To me it is all the same, all One. Even where cultural knowledge is being explored, there is an immersion into the culture to do that. And if the individual is given superficial knowledge then they will only be able to employ it in superficial ways. If they are given deeper understanding they will employ it on deeper levels. Again, IMHO. Culture and religion are of man, spirituality is beyond what laws, boundaries, or rules man can set down. I do see the universals in the foundational basics pretty much across the board. There may be semantics involved, different ways of presentation, but the truths remain the same.  The sharing of that, well I don't think we're the ones to determine if it's right or wrong by any given individual. Certainly if they are harming others (as in your examples) then yes, it would be wrong hands delivering. But many who are sharing today are doing so because they've been directed to do just that, not out of self-importance (at least those I know aren't walking in ego) but out of purpose.
M2~ Hopefully I'll be able to help you understand better what I'm talking about expressing it a little differently. Often we are the recipient of information and knowledge that we've gathered to ourselves through our earthwalk. Some people believe that it is wrong to share powerful insights with others if they are not of a culture, tradition, or belief system that sustains that body of knowledge. Eclectic sharing I guess you could call it.
Personally, I've walked with many teachers in the 60 some years I've been here and I don't always remember where I learned this or that, or which oral tradition it came from. The issue is not plagiarism as in taking from the written word, but in knowledge we hold that would be beneficial to someone in need whether we can cite the source or not. Your thesis is a good example of crediting or acknowledging what we can. Sometimes we can't even do that. *Soft smile* Plagiarism is defined as sharing the words/work of another that is not common knowledge. And in many instances most knowledge is fairly common, the protected knowledge is about copyright issues there.
And good for the PhD researcher doing their thesis on this topic! I'll bet that's fascinating research! I think as humans we're the ones that erase the simple answers and complicate them with our rules sometimes. Image I believe if we walk (and share) with the 3-I's we're okay. Like you, my learnings are not meant to be hidden or hoarded either, that's been made very clear to me. And I love the sharing myself. I don't like being stolen from either, if it is intentional. But there are times people repeat what I've shared and I take that as flattering that they would value it that much too. So yes, while we may ask is it mine to share or not? ... well again, I think that takes knowing discernment and honoring the knowledge properly we would share in right manner then. You see? *Soft smile* Knowing discernment would fall under your guidelines.
Mitchy~ You are not alone, shamanic teachings are often coming at a high price these days. I've seen single seminars costing $2,000.00 or more. However if there is private teaching going on that individual deserves compensation for their time as it is consumptive and often their only means of livelihood. I see nothing wrong with those fees. That's a touchy area for many people. I think where there's a measure of resources at no cost and that's balanced with fees for going beyond that point it's fair. Much like a doctor or attorney is going to be compensated for their knowledge and professional treatment of medicine or law, practitioners of spiritual paths are entitled to sustain themselves as well. IMHO.
That said, yes, it is everyone's birthright to learn the old ways, to develop themselves, and if they can't afford to study with someone then there are other more lengthy means of trial and error learning. That is how the shamans of old did it, through trial and error and often costly errors. To study with someone helps the individual avoid the pitfalls in many, many ways. I can use Spirit Lodge as an example of what I mean here: the libraries and many other resources are free. The forums and membership to the website is free, it has been and always will be. However, if someone wants the one on one coaching I am going to charge a fee as that's my livelihood and I've been doing so for well over 40 years now. If one gives it all away for free on full-time basis one is soon out of house and home and very hungry. So I do believe compensation is due when one goes above and beyond the general sharing to walk a path of devoted sharing and in that there is a marked difference from the social sharing that we all do. Those who teach across the board are compensated for their knowledge when they share it with the masses.
Wachituga~ Your father's words made me smile. "I don't know. I must have picked it up somewhere." That was what prompted my initial question. Thanks! And I agree with you 100% with those that think knowledge is about power and status etc. that's ego-based thinking. Your points there are well taken and I don't think your ways of thinking are that strange at all. Knowledge held by institutions or establishments are often kept secret for reasons of power over others, shared only with those who will adhere to the mindset that guards over that body of knowledge. I agree with that as well since I've seen it in practice over the years. Like you I like the whole circle too.

In the wrong hands it can be very dangerous, and I agree with that too, hence my attitude about discernment. It's not about judgement over others, but seeing where the capability resides or not. As in the case of your relatives who are unstable, to use their gifts might open them to possession and other negative entity attacks, or attracting negative energies that would be detrimental to their own well-being. So that may have been why your mother was told not to use her gifts, because she was incapable of protecting herself? Just a thought there.
I believe in the grand scheme of things that it is important to share what we can when it does promote greater understanding and paths to positive change. It think we are in an age now where those who have held knowledge that is sacred are sharing and risking themselves to ridicule to do that so they can effect that positive change. Spirituality in the umbrella term is becoming so widespread today, it's gaining common ground rather than restrictiveness of the elite. And that I do support. I believe that self-control comes of spiritual development and that honor is learned along the way to maintain it. We all make mistakes, but if we are given space to make them and encouraged to learn from them then the shame and guilt conditioning vanishes and growth takes its place.
Like you, I can see something in all
the perspectives on this issue, yet agree with you that progress is unstoppable. I believe the time has come to flow with it too. I believe too that we (as cultural individuals) have built walls around what we hold sacred to protect it but that it is time it is shared openly so the missing links are united again and we as a whole can progress within the Oneness. I've seen what happens in the mental health industry so I understand what you're talking about there. One of my favorite quotes is: "A leader is only as powerful as their ability to empower others." I don't know who said it but I like it, it feels like it was said with a great deal of integrity. The only one we truly have control over is ourselves.
DH~ Thank you for your input and insight. I think this is a powerful statement: "In my experience Knowledge only becomes Wisdom when we are at a point in
our lives when we are ready to acccept the Knowledge: when we have
reached a level of Wisdom almost equal to the Knowledge being imparted. I
feel that the Wisdom we bring to the table is won from experience and
was at one time Knowledge we sought which was tested by experience." I agree with that totally for it is what I've come to understand within the teachings and experiences I've received over the years too.



I also agree with this statement: "To me Knoweldge and the Wisdom it imparts are not the property of one
person, culture or nation, but rather a pool that all can tap into. My
own Journey has taught me that, for instance, there is very little
difference between Native American and Celtic Shamanism. There are basic
principles, commmon to many spiritual knowledge systems, that can be
shared."



I also think you're point about the impact of the Land in one culture altering the usage of the knowledge in another Land. We experienced the restriction of knowledge here when the government outlawed certain Native religious and spiritual practices in order to control the People. Those laws were rescinded in the 70's thankfully, and the knowledge that was held by the Elders is being brought back as a result...but it was held sacred and secret which I think is something that has gone on in all cultures. Your examples of that are well expressed. Thank you.
Your experience in the UAE and the understanding you gained as opposed to visiting other places was (IMHO) likely because you were ready to hold that understanding. I believe knowledge shared that is beyond one's understanding is useless to an individual and often is so confusing it goes right over their heads. They can't follow the concepts. And if they try to employ the knowledge without the understanding they call to themselves experiences that will bring the understanding forward...perhaps in not so pleasant ways. So as the UAE experience brought for the sense that Land (what I would call Voice of the Land) was showing you the "why" of that culture, the Land of any location will do that if the individual is ready to receive the enlightenment. This is what comes of interacting with the Spirit of Place. And we will only be received and the knowledge imparted if we show ourselves ready for it. IMHO, experience and training.
Your comment on cultural differences and non-immersion into a culture is quite valid, one would need to experience it firsthand to understand that depth. But the spiritual insights of any given culture will hold universal truths to them that I do not see as 'owned' by anyone. Therein I think that the cultural arguments call for discerning. This is a very sensitive issue here in the US with indigenous Peoples. I understand that their culture is all that remains to them and that it is already in tatters in many ways, however I disagree with the fact that the spiritual perspectives are exclusive to them. They can be found in all nature-based traditions. Therefore I don't enter into that argument other than superficially if it comes up.
When it comes to the religious practices of the Druids, or here with Medicine People, slight of hand is parcel to those practices as it imparts drama and impacts the witnesses. The integrity of that usage would vary of course depending on the intent behind it. Where it pertains to manipulation for the sake of power over others that to me is a Shadow aspect and the individual/s would then be following a path of ego IMHO, or beyond that to be a ruling class and hold power over others on massive scales. The Church has done the same thing in conquering others and their belief systems too. That's part of history and we can see where such abuse reflects a lack of the 3-I's.


Yes, we both know Shadow Teachers, but I think that's part of the experience aspect of life to encounter them. I've come to appreciate the fact that eventually they do open our eyes to things and we grow from those experiences. I appreciate that part of the relationships, however don't care for those sort of lessons so today have learned to see them coming and avoid them at all costs. I think that's part of learning our discerning skills too. *Soft smile* We all encounter them at some point, some moreso than others. And you are right, the seeker is responsible for questioning the source of the knowledge being imparted to them. This is a fundamental aspect that I was taught in any encounter be it physically or spiritually based. We have to learn the difference between Shadow and Light in someone and it's our individual responsibility to ourselves to do just that.
As for written material, I see that as opening a door for someone, it's up to them then to go beyond the written word to explore the concepts the book contains. I believe this is why the oral tradition has sustained the tests of time, it's a key element in gaining knowledge and experience and in that way we do come to our wisdom through understanding. Experience is not fully expressed in the written word, so while you state that many cultural leaders object to it being written about, I don't see where it brings harm, it's incomplete and the party reading about it would then need to take things further to gain understanding. Otherwise they're left with theories and concepts only. It's like being stuck in Air unable to move into the lessons the other elements bring forward.



I agree written material plays a part, and I think it's a vital part, it begins the initiating process IMHO. And it's through the written word that places like the Lodge convey things people seek to understand. But again, until they put that into practice and do their homework they won't hold the Knowing (knowledge) or understanding necessary to successfully employ any of it. You're right, we need to trust ourselves in what is right or wrong for us, or who we opt to walk with and learn from. 


SEDD~ You put things so succinctly! LOL I agree we can easily overburden and confuse someone by feeding them knowledge too fast or too soon. We can also repel them by trying to force feed them too. Like you, I'm
not into the secret societies or closed circles either, I think we've come to a point in time where they are no longer the Keepers of knowledge that needs caretakers, but have become detrimental to the greater whole and corrupt in so many instances. I won't even get onto that soapbox!
Thank you all for your contributions, the thread has depth and multi-layered insights that will benefit many in the future. I'm going to copy it to the main library.
You're all welcome to continue sharing here if you want to.
~Wan-Tanna-Hey: "Walk In Peace With Spirit"~

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~To Be A Feather In Spirit's Wing~


~Experience Is A Master Teacher~
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